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Open Thread – Quebec as a “Nation”

According to the CBC, the House of Commons has passed the controversial Harper motion declaring that “the Quebecois form a nation within a united Canada”.

The word nation is typically used to describe a country: the first definition in the American Heritage Dictionary says a nation is “A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.”

Harper claims that he actually means nation in the “cultural-sociological” sense, thus claiming the third definition of nation in the American Heritage Dictionary: “A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality.”

I propose yet another definition: “A can of worms; a cat no longer confined to a bag; a wrench typically used by monkeys”.

I could be wrong about that, which is where you come in. Thoughts?

[tags]politics, quebec, canada[/tags]

18 Responses to “Open Thread – Quebec as a “Nation””
  1. Ade:

    From the Toronto Star – Candidates navigate roiling ‘nation’ waters:

    Rather than stumbling through serial constitutional crises in search of elusive consensus, Harper is taking a shortcut to the conclusion that Canada is whatever Canadians think it is, no matter how different.

    There’s a certain modern appeal to a country that’s a collection of illusions. It lets ordinary people get on with daily life and allows federal politicians to escape the ultimate responsibility of setting national objectives and then working with other governments to get from now to then.

    Fatigue and the energy needed to make modern sense of a quill-pen Constitution are the most compelling arguments for limiting aspirations. But there’s not much heart-throbbing about a country satisfied to be no more than the sum of its multiple parts.

  2. Ade:

    There is a wonderful and highly thought-provoking debate on this issue taking place over at Reddit.

  3. Ade:

    From the Globe and Mail – Canadians strongly reject Quebec nationhood: poll:

    Canadians overwhelmingly rejected the concept of Quebec nationhood in a new poll released Tuesday, one day after all parties in Parliament declared the Quebecois a nation within Canada.

    Outside Quebec, 77 per cent of Canadians rejected the idea the province forms a nation, suggested the Leger Marketing survey conducted for the TVA television network and distributed to The Canadian Press.

    Among regional, linguistic and Liberal party breakdowns, French-speaking Quebeckers, at 71 per cent, were the only group to “personally consider that Quebeckers form a nation.”

    As well, Liberal leadership candidate Bob Rae has the most support among Canadians of any of the candidates, according to the poll.

  4. Elmelo:

    It’s a gamble, and a reckless one. Harper was trying to one-up the similar measure proposed by the Bloc Québecois, thinking that this might damage the seperatist movement by taking an issue away from them, while at the same time advancing the interests of Western nationalism. I will explain.

    This sort of measure has been considered and rejected in the past because if you confer some sort of special recognition on the French-speaking people of Québec, you are giving the seperatist movement a justification for demanding real political powers that extend beyond those provincial powers already outlined in the constitution. The point that will be made is this “You have already recognized us as a nation, we want the powers necessary to guide our destiny as a nation”.

    This is a problem for a number of reasons:

    * By cantonizing a French nation in Québec, it makes the protection of minority rights for French-speaking populations in places like Ontario and Manitoba that much more difficult.
    *It confuses “national” government with a provincial government and gives the provincial government a reason to ask for control over its foreign policy, as outlined above, and this is also bad for people in Québec who happen not to be “québecois pure laine”, pure quebeckers, in other words white, French-speaking quebeckers who are considered to be the “extended family” of the first “habitants” at Québec City in the 17th century.
    *It irritates Western nationalism. Westerners get angry when they see that Québec or French-speakers in Canada “get something”, because it plays into a story Westerners tell themselves about how they are hard-done by while they enrich themselves on the largest portion of the country’s natural wealth, from farming to mineral resources and oil.
    *”Freebies” to Québec are sometimes cynically used by Western politicians as a prelude to their asking for more powers.

    That this motion has been passed is not surprising, since Canada currently has a Prime Minister who, before the amalgamation of Reform Party and the Progressive Conservative Party, has been a life-long player in the Western nationalist circles (note: I do not say separatist). As he got closer and closer to power, the less he talked about these nationalist issues and people have forgotten (just check out any biography of Harper to confirm this).

    I suspect that Harper is one of those who thinks the West is better off in Canada with the Federal government forbidden from sticking its nose in the Western provinces business. And right he is, it is much better if you can arrange a situation where you get lots of money from the Federal government to run your hospitals, etc… but can keep the Federal government from telling you how to spend it.

    By giving National recognition to French-speaking Québec (they gave themselves plausible deniability by being ambiguous on this point, all the while knowing that everyone will interpret it this way,) Harper lays the groundwork for further claims to be made on federal power by the Western provinces, primarily Alberta, who searches to keep all the money it makes off of oil (they have no provincial sales tax there thanks to it!) and not give back money to the country, as Ontario, Québec, and British Colombia (depending on the year) do, to run national spending programs like health care and the like.

    That’s the minimal scenario. The worst case scenario is that the country breaks up 20 years down the line as the various regional powers, smelling blood in the water, make a rush to devolve federal power to a minimum. Its a low possibility, but more likely today than it was yesterday.

    As I said to people before the election, “Be as careful voting for a Western nationalist (Harper) as you would voting for a Québec nationalist (Duceppe). If you wouldn’t trust Duceppe with national power, why would you trust Harper?” Not that it matters much in the end, because the Liberals are currently so lost most of them voted for this anyways.

    All one can do is hope that the worst possibilities of the situation don’t materialize even when there are no competent , electable leaders for the country currently putting themselves forward in any party.


  5. The concept of a Nation is a very 18-19th century idea. It’s the idea of a more or less ethnically homogeneous political entity that manages its own affairs for its own interests. A Nation is by definition closed, insular, and conservative insofar as it struggles to preserve its distinct character in the face of constant exposure to different cultural values.

    In other words, it’s profoundly antithetical to the idea of Canada, which is a multi-national, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural political entity that takes a larger, more open approach to governance and continually reinvents itself as its culture changes and evolves.

    The guiding principle in a Nation is chauvinism – deciding that one culture is better or more pure than others and maintaining a bulwark that insulates that culture from outside infiltration or dilution.

    The guiding principle of Canada, by contrast, is tolerance – deciding that fundamental values of life, liberty, expression, and compassion are enough to unite a diverse citizenry that often disagrees about particular cultural issues but respects the other’s right to have an opinion and to pursue various expressions of “the good”.

    It’s no surprise that the Harper Conservatives have decided to champion Quebec’s Nationhood. It plays into their profoundly conservative idea that Canada is not a real country and exists only because of governmental meddling (think of the east-west railroad as a countervail to the “natural” north-south economic imperative).

    Further, it supports the Conservative (big-C) tactic of devolving powers to lower levels of government that have less tax powers and are therefore more constrained by markets and private interests.

    Finally, it opens the constitutional can of worms that feeds Western alienation and gives hope to those Westerners – among whom we must count Harper himself – who want to “build a firewall” around Alberta and assert a kind of nationhood there as well.

    In other words, it serves Harper’s ultimate goal of making the idea of Canada too dysfunctional to persist.

  6. alevo:

    This issue has been raised for the purpose of crass, political brinksmanship and little else.

    The issue: who dares to wade the deepest into a pool of murky water?

    The winner of the contest doesn’t get a prize per se, but rather a chance to outflank their political adversaries – it’s a preemptive strike for publicity and in my opinion, the principle of the motion is not worth much scrutiny. It is clear that neither Harper, his Caucus, nor many of the other shrewd minds in the House of Commons had any idea what they were supporting when this motion was raised. The fact is, when it comes to Quebécois nationalism, there is little substance to opinions outside Quebec.

    Chantal Hebert raises an excellent point in her article of yesterday:

    Zero – the sum of the Quebec MPs who voted against a Conservative motion that recognizes that the “Québécois form a nation within a united Canada.”

    If ex-intergovernmental affairs minister Michael Chong had spent a bit more time listening to his Liberal colleagues from Quebec over the course of the parliamentary debate that led to the overwhelming endorsement of the motion Monday night, he might have remained in Stephen Harper’s cabinet.

    Chong said he resigned because he could not support a resolution that he described as a vindication of ethnic nationalism. But the people most likely to be adversely affected by such a restrictive reading of Quebec reality had a very different take on the motion.

    More so than any other group in the House of Commons, Quebec Liberals MPs can claim to speak for non-francophone Quebecers. Most of them win massive majorities in ridings where francophone voters are largely outnumbered. Those MPs are not in the business of supporting resolutions that treat their constituents as second-class citizens.

    In French in Quebec, the word Québécois is commonly understood to be inclusive of the increasingly diverse population of the province. While the common language is different, the nationalism on offer is every bit as civic as Chong’s Canadian ideal.

    Surely, no one is suggesting that it is necessary to forgo French for English to achieve an inclusive social model.

    It is a source of perpetual fascination to most Quebec insiders that when it comes to developments in the province, so many outside it take their cue from the sovereigntists who have failed to achieve their goal for decades rather than from the front-line federalists who have kept them in check for all that time, often against very long odds.

  7. Ade:

    It’s hard to know what to make of all this and as a result I think many Canadians are yawning about it by now, although in an irritated way.

    Collective irritation with debates on Canada’s future as a unified country aside, it seems the significance of this is that it demonstrates Harper is playing games with the country, or that it will invigorate separatists, or that it will discourage separatists, or that it illustrates that a great deal of fuss can be made over nothing at all.

    In the latter vein is Nation debate as clear as poutine, which made me laugh today:

    Depending on how it is used, [“Québécois”] can mean all the French Canadians in all of Canada, although most of the time it means only the French Canadians in Quebec.

    Except when it means everybody, French Canadian or not, who lives in Quebec.

    When it doesn’t, though, don’t get the idea it refers to all francophone Quebecers, since sometimes it is used to mean only the “pure laine” descendants of Quebec’s original French settlers.

    The Prime Minister dispatched two of his cabinet’s brightest lights, Senator Marjory LeBreton and Lawrence Cannon, the minister of transport, to clarify things.

    LeBreton was succinct. “I know anglophone Quebecers who call themselves Quebecois.”

    Asked if he agreed with her that the motion applied to everybody who lives in Quebec, “regardless of the boat their ancestors came over on,” Cannon was equally succinct. “No, it doesn’t. Let’s be clear on this.”

    Then Cannon began to wobble even more. “Québécois” in the Conservative motion meant exactly the same as it did in the Bloc Québécois motion it was introduced to counter — namely the pure laine, old-stock francophones.

    The difference was that the BQ had used the term in order to divide; the Conservatives were using it to unite.

    After being taken into the shop and tinkered with, however, Cannon’s wobble was so thoroughly corrected that when it came time for the vote, he was steering in precisely the opposite direction. The motion now included “all who live in the province of Quebec.” It didn’t matter “what language they speak.”

    Finally, Stephen Harper himself rumbled in to set everybody straight with words Humpty Dumpty would be proud to use if he were still together enough to talk. “The Québécois know who they are.”

    As alevo points out, the real significance of this controversy might be as a big distraction. I think it’s ridiculous.

    Like many Canadians I am sick and tired of the national unity debate. Like many Ontarians, I am REALLY sick of it.

    Let’s face it: Ontario would do just fine on its own if it had to. We have by far the biggest provincial economy in Canada (40% of GDP compared to 20% for Quebec and 16% for Alberta – although Alberta’s per capita GDP is better), 5 million more people than the next closest province, Quebec (12 541 400 compared to 7 598 100), and we are the seat of the country’s capital which in my opinion means that if the country split up, Ontario would have rights on the name “Canada”.

    I don’t know about that last part, but as much as I love this entire, unified country, I am getting sick of the separatists. And I don’t even really mean the Quebec separatists, since they have proven themselves a pretty incompetent lot. I’m talking about the Alberta separatists, who are now apparently running the country but still won’t shut up.

    There are many challenges facing this country – this nation – that are far more important than the latest unity flap.

  8. Tim:

    Does this mean we can go back to calling Quebec “Lower Canada”?


  9. I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen.
    I haven’t gotten much done lately.
    My life’s been completely bland lately, but so it goes. Not much on my mind these days.